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Currently browsing thread: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come Petersen Nov 10, 2005 07:08:40
A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come
Petersen
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Nov 10, 2005 07:08:40 		McCain at Cyberbrethren provides this link worshipping Macs. Has anoyone else noticed? Mac users are like Mormons. McCain, Seaver, Cholak, Mueller. Why are these people always busting my chops? Trying to seduce me to the "joys" of computer use and a boot-free area where I get my own world to rule? Contrary to these Jobs' devotees, the answer is not to spend twice the money on hardware, that is, the Mac answer. Rather the answer is to stop spending money on software. Linux is the future. Have I gone Linux yet? No. Linux is eschatological. We still live under the cross. For my part, I am waiting for Fickel to figure it out and give me the go ahead. In the meantime, I count on these generous people that develop Linux apps for Windows end-users and give them away for free. Come, Linux, come quickly. (Hurry up, Fickel. Because you know the Mackies are going to respond before 12:00 noon with some "I told you so" posts.)  

Comments...

  • Nov 14, 2005 07:59:02 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Pastor Beisel
    How about this--Windows is like the Church Militant, and Mac is like the Church Triumphant. "We feebly struggle, they in glory shine."
    • Nov 14, 2005 08:43:47 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Petersen
      "How about this--Windows is like the Church Militant, and Mac is like the Church Triumphant. 'We feebly struggle, they in glory shine.' Quoth the Beisel, 3 days after he wrote: "I honestly can't believe people are still posting on this." Word: Believe it.
  • Nov 11, 2005 16:31:07 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Pastor Beisel
    I honestly can't believe people are still posting on this.
    • Nov 11, 2005 18:33:42 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - McCain
      You say you honestly can't believe it? Which raises the question in my mind, "Is there such a thing as a dishonest belief?"

      As for the tu quoque fallacy that my fellow Macintosh brother seems to be suggesting...let me just say this.

      A fundamental principle of reasoning in ethics, in terms that even children instinctively understand, is "turnabout is fair play." Any rule that applies to one person must be applied to all, or at least to all other persons in relevantly similar circumstances. This symmetry of moral agents to each other is what underlies such fundamental moral principles as the Golden Rule and Kant's Categorical Imperative. Fair play in argumentation is, of course, just one place in which the general "turnabout" principle is applied with legitimate and appropriate force. If one reasoner is entitled to use a particular form of reasoning, a particular sort of appeal, or a particular background assumption, then all other reasoners in the discussion are entitled to use it as well.

      The Tu Quoque fallacy mimics the legitimate use of the principle of ethical symmetry. However, an error is introduced. It is fair to say that if one reasoner is not entitled to use a particular appeal, then no other reasoner may use it either, but it does not follow from this that if one reasoner uses an illegitimate appeal (and is allowed to get away with it) that the appeal then becomes legitimate. Cheating does not become fair play merely because someone else cheats first. Fair play requires that no one cheat.

      I note that many logicians consider the Tu Quoque fallacy to belong to the Ad Hominem category, and they include under it various examples that I consider to be examples of the Ad Hominem - Ex Concessis fallacy. The difference between the two fallacies, as I conceive the matter, is that the Tu Quoque fallacy is used to defend an argument (by pointing out that that it is no worse than something else which is presumed to be acceptable), while the Ex Concessis fallacy is used to attack an argument (by pointing out that it is, in some superficial way, just as bad as something else which is presumed to be unacceptable). When the argument both attacks and defends simultaneously, the example may be impossible to place under just one fallacy.
      • Nov 11, 2005 22:48:45 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - revcwirla
        Actually, I was just saying "You too" in Latin, indicating that one can hardly express disbelief that people are still posting by posting yet another post, which is yet even more unbelievable.

        Of course you're always welcome to weigh in on Logical Fallacies Friday at Rev. Cwirla's Blogosphere . We covered "Tu Quoque" a while back under Ad Hominem. Not as thoroughly; a lot funnier though. <grins>
    • Nov 11, 2005 18:04:21 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - revcwirla
      Tu quoque!
  • Nov 11, 2005 16:09:20 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - revcwirla
    So sad. Watching Pr. Petersen wait for Linux is a bit like watching Charlie Brown waiting for the Great Pumpkin.
  • Nov 11, 2005 09:43:18 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - revcwirla
    The really sad thing is that this is the most traffic this blog site has seen in eons. Clearly a shameless pitch for numbers.

    PC: Ford Pick-up
    Mac: Ferarri Testarossa

    Enough said.
  • Nov 11, 2005 06:28:46 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Christopher Gillespie
    C'mon people. All this talk is legalism. OS is clearly adiaphora. I personally am ecumenical and use both. My laptop is PC because it was half the cost. My desktop is Mac because at the end of the day I just want something that does what it needs to do.

    I look forward to a dual boot Intel-based Mac laptop some day. I can have my cake, east it, and even deal with the nasty tasting Windows frosting.

    Chris
    • Mar 17, 2006 06:32:40 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Sweaver
      Be ye hot or cold, not luke-warm, lest you be spewed from God's mouth.
    • Nov 11, 2005 06:59:44 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - McCain
      Adiaphora? What is neither commanded, nor forbidden? Are you serious?

      Macintosh is commanded. Windows is forbidden. It's in the Bible. That settles it.

      Check out my latest blog on this dreadfully disturbing topic:

      http://paulmccain....s/020201.html#more
      • Nov 11, 2005 09:30:11 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - beisel
        Windows is very Lutheran--cut and dry, clear and simple. Macintosh is like Eastern Orthodoxy, it's kind of all over the place.
        • Nov 11, 2005 16:51:10 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Paul
          If Lutheranism is to be compared to a computer os on the basis of being "cut and dry, clear and simple" wouldn't that make it DOS? The whole kernal (Small Catechism?) fit in a few kbytes of RAM.
        • Nov 11, 2005 13:59:17 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Rev. Ben Mayes
          Windows is not like genuine Lutheranism. It's like the prevailing secular culture. Everyone's doing it and most people don't even stop long enough to question it, no matter the failures and problems in the system. Mac is like confessional Lutheranism. Trustworthy, dependable (like the Word), but it doesn't always have the latest software, making it appear old-fashioned or out of step with the modern world.

          Linux on the other hand, that's sectarianism. (At least so far.) Its proponents are fervent evangelists, but no Linux system (or user) agrees with the other.
        • Nov 11, 2005 10:14:07 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - McCain
          If you think Lutheranism is cut and dry, clear and simple...please...seek immediate medical attention.

          And how do you account for the Icons on your Window machine, Mr. Cut and Dry? Take that.

          On the other hand, if your view of Lutheranism is Samuel Simon Schmucker style Lutheranism, Pieistic Lutheranism, in other words, Lutheranism stripped of its mystery, beauty and vigorous and challenging thought-world...then, ok, if that is what you mean by Lutheranism...yes, for sure Windows is "Lutheran." But that's not Lutheranism.
  • Nov 10, 2005 21:29:14 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Rev. Ben Mayes
    Peperkorn gave me and Michael Frese the mystagogy into Mac. Michael is convinced the eschaton has arrived. I'm living in my vocation, facing the struggles of Mac use, but knowing that I can rely on it, kind of like Baptism. It's not without the cross, however, as life in this vale of tears rarely is. Not all files from my PC migrated, not all of my old software has Mac equivalents (e.g. Scholar's Aid). But what I have, it's enough, and it does work.

    But I must confess, our second computer in the house is running Windows 98SE, and when MS stops supporting that, I'm thinking of making the migration on that computer to Linux. Our household is a good example of "simul justus et peccator."
  • Nov 10, 2005 16:08:53 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Pastor Beisel
    Don't have a mac, don't intend to change. I am content with our Dell. I like how it runs, I like the operating system. Don't try to convert me unless you have $800 more dollars you can lend me.
  • Nov 10, 2005 15:46:28 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Rev. Todd Peperkorn
    What is really sick is that Petersen made this post purely to increase the traffic to his web site.

    The least you could do is give us topics like the semper virgo or contraception or law & gospel or vocation or pietism or something actually THEOLOGICAL to increase your web traffic.

    Not that your obsessed with numbers or anything...

    Peper
    (Mac user)

  • Nov 10, 2005 14:02:01 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - McCain
    We Macintosh users only feel pity for our Microsoft Windows brethren. Seriously, I've worked with both platforms, extensively and hands-down Macintosh is the better system of the two. But at the end of the day, they are both computers and both get the job done. It is simply, I guess, somewhat akin to the difference between taking your meals at a cheap buffet on trays and plastic plates with plastic utensils and dining at a five-star gourmet establishment. You can get the job done in both places, but ... well, you get my point. I won't belabor it. That would be unkind.
  • Nov 10, 2005 13:55:55 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Karl Abbott
    Linux has supported iPods for over a year now. Plus, there is no reason to buy such stripped down versions of Linux as Xandros and Linspire. Rather, go download the Fedora Core 4 dvd from fedora.redhat.com, and then read fedorafaq.org. Linux, for free, that will work much better than Xandros or Linspire.

    The eschaton is now. For me, I've personally only used Linux since September 2001.
    • Nov 10, 2005 17:14:45 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Pastor Fickel
      Karl,

      Sure, Linux is now for you. Try Petersen, or his wife, or his mom. Linux will be here when everyone can use it for everything. Right now the task of making a backup copy of a DVD is not easy. Making a DVD or VideoCD from an AVI or WMV or MPG sends you to the command line. I can do it. You can do it. CyberDavid can't.

      I like the idea that Linux allows users to choose from several different versions of X-windows. Jacqui would be paralyzed by the decision. My wife couldn't install a printer on Linux, let alone connect to our wireless network. All of which she did easily with Windows XP or 2000.

      Linspire and Xandros are the beginnings of something that will really work for everyone. Keep Fedora Core or Debian or Slackware or PC Linux or Knoppix or whatever distribution you prefer. Take hold the power and make it work. Others are going to need a better migration path.

      -Fickel
  • Nov 10, 2005 13:04:11 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Klemsz
    I'm the sole Mac user at CTS and I can do no other. While some of our brothers and sisters on the campus have a Mac at home, mine sits proudly on my desk in my study.

    It works, plain and simple.
    • Nov 10, 2005 14:10:23 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - McCain
      Rev. Klemsz, there was a day where I personally catechized in the way of Macintosh men such as Wenthe, Weinrich, Just and others. It grieves me to hear that those who once tasted from the tree of Macintosh life and drank deeply at the springs of living Macintosh water have now turned their backs on it. I recall one professor who was faced with a terrible ordeal in that his entire Ph.D. dissertation had to have the Greek changed at the last minute and he had no idea what to do. I was called into to work Macintosh magic on the document and in literally three minutes the Greek had been restored and formatted correctly. He will tell the tale if you ask, but I Just don't feel I can say who it was. And to think even he has left the way of Macintosh. I can not bear the thought!
      • Nov 14, 2005 11:31:59 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Heidi
        I wouldn't say all of the profs have "turned their backs" on the mac, it's just hard to get support from IT if you use them on campus. I do know that Dr. Just has recently purchased a mac for home use and loves it. Many more of us on staff have macs at home too.
      • Nov 10, 2005 17:09:11 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Pastor Fickel
        I was at the Sem when all the Apple laptops and desktops were giving the profs fits. No one could fix them. Profs were deleting system files and all other manner of terrible behavior. The failsafe OS proved less than so in the hands of theologians.

        Mac lovers are akin to Democrats -- style over substance, damned the price tag.

        -Fickel
        • Nov 10, 2005 19:41:25 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - McCain
          Why do I get the distinct impression that Fickel has no true hands-on experience with the Macintosh OS as it is today, not as it was in 1988? I have vivid and humorous memories of seminary students in the 1980s arguing themselves blue in the face, actually getting emotional about it, telling me that the command line interface was so superior to the Macintosh graphical user interface and that the Mac's GUI was a passing fad. They grew strangely silent when Windows first appeared. Ooops.

          I find that, generally speaking, Macintosh users are often must more familiar with both platforms and have chosen to use Macintosh, whereas Windows users have little substantial experience with Macintosh, but prefer to pontificate on the basis of ignorance.

          We Macintosh users just have to smile and say, "I'm sure you are right." You just can't argue with people who refuse to see, and in the land of the blind a one eyed man is king.

          No computer can guard itself against stupidity, that is for sure.

          • Nov 11, 2005 08:33:53 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Klemsz
            The majority of profs mourn the loss of the Macs. Klinger came on board and took the Lilly money hostage, only purchasing those other machines and giving them free to the profs. They GAVE the profs free PCs. Trust me, many would still be using Macs if our IT department was more ecumenical.
  • Nov 10, 2005 12:59:09 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Petersen
    FWIW, Fickel is about the only full-blown "computer guy" I know that is not in love with Macs. Prior to receiving holy orders he did not work for Motorola. He worked for Intel. Which is the the exact distance from Steve Jobs as Salt Lake City is from Baghdad. If Mac users are like Mormons in their zeal, Fickel is not a Muslim. He is some kind of Jehovah's Witness. That is, he doesn't like Apple the way JW's don't like Mormons. But he still leaves me confused and less than convinced that computers are wonderful. As I have oft said, "If only I had a sledge hammer in my office . . . " . . . (Now the Mac guys all say in unison: "You wouldn't say that if you had a Mac." Then Fickel turns red and pulls out his Intel corporate report.)
    • Nov 10, 2005 17:25:34 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Pastor Fickel
      Dave,

      I suspect I am the only full-blown computer guy you know. Anyone who enters the picture after the processer, motherboard, and firmware is not a full-blown computer guy.

      I have spent some time in front of Macs. I have never found them intuitive. The FINDER didn't allow me to find anything. I could barely get one to dial-out so that I could check my e-mail. Printer was always a problem. Why did I need the CHOOSER. I didn't want to choose. I wanted to print. Anyway, it always confused me.

      As far as Intel's corporate report, it will only get better. Now, they'll have the processors in the computers that represent Apple's sliver of market share.

      -Fickel
  • Nov 10, 2005 12:31:37 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Cholak
    It is amazing how now on a couple of occasions I have just opened my Mac and let someone "hear the good news" of its flawless operation. A click here and an open application there and only a few words from me soon has the person saving their Starbuck's change to purchase their own. It has made me wonder if we will all have a Mac issued to us at the pearly gates... :)

    And Pastor Fickel...you do know that an iPod is an Apple product, right?

    Pax Christi,
    Cholak
    • Nov 10, 2005 17:28:24 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Pastor Fickel
      Cholak,

      Yes, I know the iPod is an Apple product. You can tell because it is practically inoperable with anything that Steve Jobs hasn't blessed. Try buying music from somewhere other than iTunes. The iPod just an award in Popular Science for being the second most incompatible product on the market (right behind AOL's instant messaging system).

      -Fickel
      • Nov 11, 2005 16:01:58 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Christopher Gillespie
        This is dumb. Buy the Cd. Rip it. Works great, PC or Mac and sounds better to boot.

        Do we need to come exorcize your CD of illegal poor sounding MP3'?
      • Nov 11, 2005 15:48:00 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Pastor Cholak
        iTunes works on a PC (so you Windows people can at least still listen to the bliss of heaven) and with the iTunes music store featuring over 2 million songs from over 1000 record labels it hard to miss the reason Apple has the highest market share with online music sales...and the highest market share with music player sales (and now those music players also play video...wow!).

        Pax - Cholak
  • Nov 10, 2005 08:54:49 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Pastor Fickel
    I hear, with some regularity, from my MAC pals about this or that web application or this or that software company not supporting MAC. Of course, I tell them they use a computer that enjoys about the same marketshare as a Bentley.

    The thing is -- Apple's partnership with Motorola has never really worked well. While Intel was put processors in computers from pocket size mini-computers all the way to silo sized super-computers, Motorola was putting chips in Apple computers and cell phones. In fact, the partnership with Motorola has now come apart, and Jobs and made the first step to redemption -- Apples will now use Intel chips.

    All that is left for Job's complete salvation is to make the Apple OS an open system -- let it run on everything, PC's, MACs, Sun Workstations, etc. But he won't. He's too stubborn, too full of pride. As for the OS being based upon Unix, everything is based on Unix now. Linux is based on Unix. Windows 2000 and its follow ons are based on Unix (the guys who built 2000 from the ground were Unix guys).

    I see a future for Linux, if some Linux companies will continue their focus on the desktop. Linux already owns a significant share of servers and the back-office. Linspire and Xandros are two quite nice Linux distributions for the desktop. I have a laptop that uses Linux exclusively. The only thing it can't do is interface with iPods and easily create Video CD's and DVD's. IPod integration is coming quite quickly -- Linspire is almost there, and others aren't far behind.

    Some municipal governments, with their current budget crunches, are make the switch to Linux. I expect that churches will make the switch at some point as well. I do hate to ruin Petersen's day, though. The Linux that is going to work, probably won't be free. It will probably cost $60 to $90 for a license, and the license will allow you to put it on all your family computers or on 5 or 10 office computers. That's still a great bargain.

    Linux is probably ready for Redeemer. You use Windows 98 now, which is pretty old, but does everything you need.

    Finally, Stan can be excused for his Mac obsession. He'll learn how quickly an Apple purchase is rejected in a church meeting when they see the price. Besides, Shepherd's Staff won't work on an Apple. So for all of McCain's Mac love, the publishing house he runs doesn't, at this, support Macs completely. I wonder if the Lutheran Service Builder supports non-Windows systems.

    -Pastor Fickel

    The Mac users is they believe that Jobs has deceived them into believing that by eathing the fruit they would become like God.
    • Nov 10, 2005 12:53:15 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Petersen
      Yesterday at the Winkel Pr. Tom Olsen (a true believer like Cholak) was crying because his Council has forbidden him from purchasing another Apple for the office. They said it has to be a PC.
    • Nov 10, 2005 12:09:56 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - McCain
      True love is demonstrated by genuine sacrifice. It is true that not everything Concordia Publishing House does supports the Macintosh directly, but as we Macintosh lovers know Virtual PC does give us a way to use PC software. Further, the Libronix system is coming directly to a Macintosh near you early in 2006, so we will have the joy of Macintosh Luther, etc. As for "eathing" the fruit, if you would use a Macintosh, you would no longer make such human errers.
    • Nov 10, 2005 11:10:23 Windows 2000 - Chris Jones
      Windows 2000 and its follow ons are based on Unix (the guys who built 2000 from the ground were Unix guys).

      Is this true? It is news to me.

      If Windows 2000 was built "from the ground up", it's odd that the Windows 2000 splash screen loudly proclaims "built on NT technology". My understanding is that Win2K is built on the NT kernel (not a Unix kernel), and that it takes the same approach to "Unix compliance" that Windows NT did (i.e. a "Posix subsystem").

      If Win2K were "built on Unix" I would be able to build Windows software on the standard Unix APIs. But I can't. It's the old same Win32 API and the other Windows APIs layered on top of Win32.

      Am I missing something?
      • Nov 10, 2005 17:19:25 Re: Windows 2000 - Pastor Fickel
        Sorry, Chris. My mistake.

        Windows NT is the core for 2000. I was at Intel when Microsoft was developing NT. I met some of the consultants who worked with the NT folks at Microsoft. NT is based on Unix very loosely. The fact is, Microsoft hired some very sharp Unix OS guys to work on NT. It was developed from the ground up.

        -Fickel
        • Nov 10, 2005 19:09:35 Re: Windows 2000 - Chris Jones
          I'm glad to know I haven't lost my mind. I remember when Dave Cutler was hired away from Digital to build Windows NT, after MS abandoned my beloved OS/2 (the perfidious knaves!). I would agree that NT is based on Unix "very loosely" - more at the conceptual level than anything (i.e. the concept of a hierarchical file system, a similar process model, similar IPC constructs, etc.; but very different in the APIs and implementation details).

          OS X, on the other hand, isn't "based on" Unix; it IS Unix, just as much as Linux, Solaris, or AIX are Unix.
  • Nov 10, 2005 08:49:21 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - McCain
    Oh, friend, we simply want you to know the mysteries hidden from so many, the joys of the true gnosis, the ecstasy of computing as God surely intended it. And how sad to see the dark ignorance of some here, such as Paul, who think Macintosh is still using a one-button mouse! Oh, what a tragedy. I have here a wireless keyboard and a bluetooth mouse that offers me all the joys of the scroll wheel and a second button. Come! Come to the blessed world of Macintosh. May you be touched by the spirit of Macintosh and may you find your heart and soul strangely warmed by the Macintosh!
  • Nov 10, 2005 07:43:04 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Paul
    You would never guess it, but I have a "Mac", but should you ever visit our basement you would see I also have OS/2, Linux, DR-Dos, Windows, Windows running on DR-Dos machines. You see computers are much safer and cheaper than horses. I would take Linux for stability and the OS/2 workplace shell as the most intuitive command interface. The mac isn't bad but I cannot understand Apple's obsession with the "one button" mouse.
  • Nov 10, 2005 07:41:02 Re: A Macintosh Messiah and the the Linux to Come - Stan
    Ahhh... another Windows user who has lied to themselves and been convinced that the only difference with a mac is operating system. :)

    First of all, Mac OS X is built upon Unix, OpenDarwin in fact (http://opendarwin.org) which was started by Apple and is Open Source. And its nearly indisputable that a Unix based operating system outdoes a Linux one everyday of the week. Yes, Linux is comparable and comprabable, but when Linus started writing Linux remember where he started. ;-)

    Second of all, there is a distinctive difference in the hardware of a mac. Currently the processors are the next generation Motorolla chips, and for any who remember the Motorolla chips they know that they were fast and stable, and put Intel based processor to shame, absolutely to shame. Even if you hate Mac you have to admit to the amazing speed simple little chips put out, and if you are unwilling to admit that than let the numbers speak for themselves. ;-)

    Third of all, while you may consider Linux to be eschatological, which is really romantic - Mac is blessed bliss. Mac users aren't confused by the here and now / yet to come. We know that we have all we need, kinda like Baptism. ;-)

    And the sad truth is that... a Mac user will be on a higher tier in heaven. :D

    Pax Christi,
    - Stan
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